The Asset-Covering Starts

Many military members thought that, while Lieutenant Colonel Allen B. West deserved light punishment for his actions, he still did indeed deserve punishment (which he received). The reasons?

1) What he (and his men) did was wrong and illegal.
2) Letting such incidents go unpunished would be harmful to the 'good order and discipline' that our military values so highly.

The reasons LtC West received lenient punishment (as he should have) are:

1) LtC West immediately took responsibility for himself and the actions of the men under his command. He turned himself in.
2) Arguably, the actions were perpetrated to save lives.
3) There was no aggravating factor to the incident.

Well, as we now know, some didn't catch the hint.

Contrast this command with that of one General Janis Karpinski.

1) What her subordinates did was wrong and disgusting. Perverted.
2) She disavows knowledge of the actions of the men and women under her command and blames it on Military Intelligence.

The Army Reserve commander who oversaw the prison said that military intelligence, rather than the military police, dictated the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. "The prison, and that particular cellblock where the events took place, were under the control of the MI command," Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski said in a telephone interview Saturday night from her home in Hilton Head, S.C.

Now MI may indeed be to blame. But I question the judgment of a general who would whine about it in a public interview, rather than take her lumps and say “all will be revealed directly” or something like that.

"I hadn't been included, I hadn't been informed, and I knew nothing," she [General Karpinski] said.

3) Someone else—another soldier--had to drop the dime about the state of the prisons in Iraq.

If there’s one thing the military hates more than being embarrassed and shamed by some of their own, it’s a weasel who attempts to shed responsibility when the feces hits the fan. That trait is especially stomach-churning to observe in higher-ups.

*****

And what is this contradictory horse manure?

In an e-mail, a commissioned officer in the unit, the 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cumberland, Md., acknowledged that the abuses had occurred but attributed them to a far-reaching failure in leadership.
"I won't defend my soldiers," the officer wrote, on the condition of anonymity. "They knew better."

If they knew better, why didn’t you take some disciplinary action, Sir?

The officer added: "I am extremely disappointed in the way the Army has handled the entire situation and feel the leadership has been made the scapegoat for a few individuals. I think the leadership problems go much higher than the brigade commander."

Is this the type of officer corps the troops are subject to these days? Yes there are leadership problems, starting with you, Sir. You lead your troops, not the other way around.

It’s becoming clear that the monsters who perpetrated the abuse on the Iraqis weren’t the only ones in need of “training.”

Comments

[A Proud Veteran]

ummm... since when were generals willing to let someone else be in charge of their turf, without keeping an eye on what was going on?

Thank God the female officers I had the honor of working for had *way* more brass (though less rank) than this woman seems to. *shakes head*

[A Proud Veteran]

*sigh* Just read the WaPo article... if SSgt Frederick was keeping such detailed notes, WTH didn't he blow the whistle, instead of just writing home to his family?

I don't understand.

I did like BG Kimmitt's comment, though:
"The very fact that we can't hold our detainee operations as a shining light for how things should be done is personally and professionally embarrassing to me,"

[baldilocks]

From what I've read, all involved in this mess appear to be paragons of cruelty, stupidity, cravenness and/or poor judgment.

[Eric]

A'men, Sister... the leaders need to be LEADING.. many of them are doing just that... but, sadly, many men and women are also promoted beyond their ability to LEAD.. promoted to leadership level positions because of penmanship skills.. rather than the ability to lead their troops...

[outraged]

You know, it gives me hope that the Army isn't as stupid as it has become. 'I wasn't informed...' Uh, yeah. right. And what would you have done had you been informed, ma'am?

Did you go and inspect the prison yourself, or rely on the anecdotal reports that 'all was well' on YOUR watch?

Did you crave the trust of your subordiates so much that you didn't want to be accused of micromanaging? Or did you simply think that you could do your time and then skedaddle? You, ma'am were there for a higher purpose than just guarding POWs. You were there as an ambassador of what America represents and what America just deposed, not a REPLACEMENT for Saddam. It is officers like you who give the military a black eye.

Do us all a favor and resign your commission. Heck, you are a BG. You have at least 20 in. Get out, get your pension and let people who care about the big picture step up to the plate. And take your whining, snot nosed subs with you.

[A Proud Veteran]

The other thing that irks me about this is that it gives those who hate the military (or just hate our activities in Iraq) ammunition. *sigh*

[Nick]

"The other thing that irks me about this is that it gives those who hate the military (or just hate our activities in Iraq) ammunition."

It is far worse than that. 6 to 10 people with a f**king camera some deep seated perversions (and then the wide distribution of those pictures) have just confirmed in 50 to 500 thousand Arab and Muslim minds that Bin Laden is right about the West.

[Steve Lambert]

A trait that has long distinguished the commissioned officers in our military from much of our civilian leadership (and many of the rest of us) has been honor. There is no question this trait is lacking in the anonymous officer in the 372nd MPC and BG Karpinski.

[baldilocks]

True, Nick. However, in my opinion, the vast majority of those hearts and minds were lost to change about the West anyway.

Those that know better, know that these were bad apples. But those are the minority and a portion of those have a vested interest in portraying all of us as the same as this scum: power.

[bellatrys]

A trait that has long distinguished the commissioned officers in our military from much of our civilian leadership (and many of the rest of us) has been honor.

Wishthink is a wonderful thing. Have you read the USS Greenville reports - the ones from the *second* time sloppiness, chronic disregard for safety regs, and arrogance towards foreigners, caused them to mis-steer umpteen million dollars of nuclear sub with resulting major damage, risk to secret information, and a very near miss of the Greenville being Thresher II? I highly recommend them, for being entertaining in a deadpan, by-the-regs morbid sort of way. (No, the pilot hadn't bothered to update his charts, yes, he knew that charts were supposed to be updated regularly, no, the captain didn't ask for a harbour pilot, and by the way, the "new" captain was the old XO from the last disaster, when they discovered a culture of slackness on board... Oh my, we drove the boat into something else!)

It is far worse than that. 6 to 10 people with a f**king camera

You have no idea how much worse than that it is. I've been monitoring Falluja and the occupation (as best one can, through the fog of American Idol and Survivor and Apprentice that dominates the news) for the past year, and I've been doing lots of research since this broke.

It would be nice if this were random, spontaneous, not officially sanctioned, and not going on anywhere else. But as I said only now on another blog -

The military thinks these events are real enough, and prevalent enough, to have ordered Karpinski out in January and an internal investigation that found widespread torture, including pouring acid on prisoners - who are often swept up randomly or on anonymous "tips", shades of the Bastille here - and sodomizing them, (broom handles mentioned) and those ex-military "civilian contractors" engaging in rapes, and several dead and concealed beating victims.

Problem is, the secret 53 page report for Pentagon Eyes Only, commissioned by some guy named Sanchez, got out.* And there is more to come, according to other soldiers. And this isn't taking into account the whole British side.

This has been simmering for a long time. Remember the forklift incident? Remember the allegations of beatings and innocents imprisoned, all the usual behavior of an occupying force, from the beginning? No? Was I the only one paying attention?

Tbe CIA is involved, people. A General in command of a prison doesn't just "forget" about an entire wing on command of some random civilian flunkeys.

We helped train the Shah of Iran's police. We helped train the Hondurans. Some actively, and some by turning a blind eye, our regime *is guilty* of torture. Just as our criminal justice system is full of criminal injustice.

The Enemy *Is* Us, Dammit.

I only hope that some soldier of conscience was the one to blow the whistle on the new Pentagon Papers, just as those who remembered conscience started all of this in the first place.

Beyond All Recognition, was what I said about US foreign policy long before we were making noises about "on to Damascus" last April. The parallels to Vietnam - from the lack of informed people with Asian Studies background (in Vietnam due to McCarthy purges, here to it seems mostly apathy) to the trusting of what is essentially a wannabe Diem, to the dehumanization of the enemy, and the schizophrenic selling of the war as on the one hand necesary to protect us against The Yellow Peril and on the other hand, Saving Those Poor Souls From Communism (and the secular auto-da-fes that followed) to the denials long after it was clear to those in charge that we were beyond SNAFU and well into CF - I think we'll be damn lucky if this is just another Vietnam, and not WWIII. We're friends with Vietnam now, after all, and they don't hate us enough to try covert ops on our capital.

*Yes, I do know who Gen. Sanchez is. (I listen to NPR.) And I still think that if they had yanked Bremer early last year and given Petraeus his job, we wouldn't be where we are now.

[wes jackson]

I have something nasty to say to belladonnatrys,
but I'm just going to follow the advice I give my children, and say nothing at all. My father had many scatalogically exspressive colloquialisms for such a person, but I shall respect the higher tone of this blog and it's creator.

[bellatrys]

Oh, get off your moral high horse, jackson. If you have something to say, you can say it here, or you can say it to my face via my email link. Don't play the saint.

I was born in a base hospital in West Germany, 2nd generation brat. I'm being mild compared to what my late grandfather the SAC colonel would have said, based on what he said following Tailhook and the need for standards and enforcement and justice, and the lack of it.

Thing is, my biological male parent was one of those dudes who a) abused his wife before abandoning her pregnant overseas, and b) also took ears and photos and bragged about it. Real American hero, my special forces sperm donor.

I've *always* known about this shit going on, and that we've been covering it up and pretending that "we don't do that" only the Krauts/Japs/gooks do it.

Now, you can a) ignore and deny the issues, and b) indulge in shoot the messenger tactics, but today you've got Gen. Myers saying in one breath that it isn't widespread, another breath that he didn't ever bother to read the report, and followed by the news that it sounds like six of the seven got quietly DD'd, and that the army is starting new investigative reports, which doesn't sound like they take Myers' word for it being "limited," even tho' the media is using that statement as a comforting headline in many cases.

Combine that with all the people who are saying, who cares, everyone *knows* that this goes on, war is hell, I remember from when I was back in Nam/Korea/etc and so what? and it is not inspiring of confidence any more than when a Bishop says "There's no more abuse, I guarantee it--"

And I'm way, *way* milder than what many veterans have been saying about it.

[baldilocks]

Get of your high horse bellatrys. You've had your say, unimpeded here, eating up much of my bandwidth to boot.

Do your homework. If you had bothered to read this blog, you'd know that some American GIs aren't the only men that abandon their duties as parents. Hint: my biological father isn't American. So spare us your whining about your poor upbringing or save it for your own blog. It's not your place to discipline people in the space that I pay for.

The perps are under arrest. In case I'm a little too subtle for your discerning eye, I'm calling for the heads of the chain of command. What more do you want?

[Lola]

What I can't fathom is how this guy said he couldn't find anything about the Geneva Convention till he got home, at least this is what I seem to faintly recollect. I just did a google search on "Geneva Convention" and turned up 827,000 hits. This guy was sending email back home - so he would have had access to the browser as well.

[Shawn Lee]

Re: Lola, e-mail access does not necessarily mean browser access. This from my friends who were allowed to e-mail, but not browse.

But I'm with you in the spirit of your argument.

[Jim]

Your commentary is absolutely correct, Juliet. Somebody who doesn't realize that she is responsible for the conduct of those under her command is not a leader. I never served in the military, but I saw this sort of thing time and time again in the corporate world before I left to go free-lance. Too much emphasis on the privileges of rank and far too little on the responsibilities.

I doubt that the treatment of prisoners is any worse than that in previous wars, but, because news spreads much faster than it did even ten years ago, it's more important than ever that the treatment be impeccable. General Karpinski either failed to realize this, or didn't care enough to do anything about it.

[Sam Barnes]

There's another unfortunate aspect to the propaganda issue as well. The U.S. military confirms the Abu Ghraib pics as legit, but I've seen some websites that are posting the Abu Ghraib pics right next to Russian porn and other (clearly staged) photos of rape, etc. In other words, the Abu Ghraib pics are explicitly being used to "bootstrap" faked accusations of war crimes and provide them with an aura of believability.

In fact, the British pics that surfaced simultaneously with the Abu Ghraib story are being contested by the British government (according to CNN), since they say that several details in the picture provide circumstantial evidence that it was staged. Sadly, this is just another consequence of the horrible actions of the MPs at Abu Ghraib. Not only can their own actions be used for propaganda against the U.S., but the pictures they took will likely provide the ounce of truth within the pound of lies told about our troops and their overall conduct.

[King Buzz]

There are so many aspects to this story that are intriguing and important. One of the most important is about the value of doing what is right, even if it is not the most expedient or effective means of accomplishing a goal. Doing the wrong thing, even for the right reasons, is a bad policy to follow. Our soldiers are humans and, like humans around the world, they will individually and in groups do things that are illegal and immoral. How we face this issue as a nation is based on what questions we will ask as a result. Below are my questions:

- What responsibility does the commander-in-chief have for beginning the process of dehumanizing the enemy (he has repeatedly said they are "Evil", hasn't he?)

- When it became obvious that we would be incarcerating thousands of prisoners in an extended dirty guerilla war, what directions for the humane treatment of prisoners were given by senior leaders?

- Has the "damn international law, we're protecting ourselves at any cost and we're not accountable to anyone" attitude of the top civilian leadership contributed to the atmosphere that's resulted in what we've seen?

I sure wish that there wasn't a presidential campaign happening right now so that this issue could be addressed without it becoming about "my side is right, your side is wrong". I don't know the answers to my questions, but I'm inclined to feel that there are very senior leaders who have a responsibility for contributing to this "propaganda" issue that goes far beyond some pictures taken of and by some low-ranking enlisted personnel.

Where will the buck be stopped?

[Nick Larsen]

baldilocks,

First, my apology for cursing on you website, next time I'll pull out the thesaurus to find the proper words of outrage instead of taking a quick short-cut.

Yes, I agree, this will not change any minds in the Middle East that are already made-up. Though I worry about those who are on the edge.

But as A Proud Veteran said, it does give many people ammunition to use. You know, I know, he (she) knows it's bull, but in far too many minds an ounce of bad has the same "moral equivalency" as a ton of good. And there is that ounce of bad.

You are right to chastise me for not having faith in people to differentiate between an isolated illegal event and an institutionalized modus operandi. But I do know there are those who are unable (and many others who will choose not) to distinguish between an act by a few people that was against both the civil laws of the U.S. and against the USMJC and will therefore be punished, versus condoned acts under Saddam that were rewarded.

Evil exists everywhere. In every country, in every system of government, in every person. But just because a person comes to that realization, does that mean that no-one is better than another, than no system is preferable to another? Or is there a fundamental difference between systems and people that actively try to restrain the evil and those that are not only ambivalent to it, but try to cultivate that evil? It is the people that answer that final question with "no," either directly or indirectly through their statements, policies, views, and ideas (even more so those who don't realize that their very ideas and opinions are answers to that question) who worry me.

bellatrys,
Please see the above paragraph. (just for note, I had not read you posts when I wrote it (I actually had the absurd comments from a few collegian papers about Pat Tillman in mind when writing it), but now it also seems a good response to your critiques.

[baldilocks]

King Buzz:

1) The president hasn't said that *all* of these people are evil. He did say that the Hussein regime was part of the Axis of Evil. As well you know, that regime's been deposed.

2) Putting these soldiers' moral compass malfunction and that of their chain of command onto the president is unfair. That's like saying that the James Byrd slaying was his fault because he was governor of Texas at the time (yes, I know; the NAACP did exactly that).

POW rules (GC)are already in place. Even if they weren't, any idiot--well most idiots--would know better than to do what these idiots did.

- Has the "damn international law, we're protecting ourselves at any cost and we're not accountable to anyone" attitude of the top civilian leadership contributed to the atmosphere that's resulted in what we've seen?

Only if the advocates of international law were proven to be morally superior to our civilian leadership. The UN oil-for-food scandal resoundingly gives a negative answer.

Welcome back, and bump this comments stuff. Post something! :-) (King Buzz got promoted, folks!)

[Helen]

I guess she must've got promoted when Clinton was in office.

[wes jackson]

The very fact that these events are out where they can be seen, and the perps WILL be punished, IS the difference between America and Most of the world. The place we live is the place bad, evil people have to fear their actions will be exposed, not rewarded. Yes, some get away with evil for a time, but here people of high moral character receive succor from those in high places, not because of who they are, but because we truly have access to Justice and all her minions. Even the Shining City On The Hill has an underbelly. That makes her no less a beacon
to those in search of freedom and justice.
So, Bellatrys, your rant that
The Enemy *Is* Us, Dammit, and the foul spew after that comment is nothing more than a sad, cool-ade drinker at work. A usefull idiot of the left, his ear stuck on NPR for his daily talking points.
I,m no saint, but I try to THINK before I open my yap.
That's all.

[Tim]

Besides the overall disgust that this was allowed to happen, there are some issues the investigations need to answer. These are a few questions I have:

1. The MPs claim that these acts were meant to soften up these specific detainees for intel interrogation. Were these sexually debasing techniques their own ad hoc attempts at softening up the detainees, or were these techniques discussed as an effective method for breaking down detainees from this culture. Were these the sick fantasies of a few Reservists, a cultural problem among a sex obsessed generation, or an official breaking-down technique that has been developed since 9/11?

2. How disconnected are interrogations from oversight in Abu Ghraib, Iraq, elsewhere and how were the MPs/Intel folks able to segregate these detainees from leadership oversight?

3. Disabusing the claims (by a Reservist who is also prison guard and a General Officer) that responsibility is mitigated by negligence, ignorance or the feigning of either.

[John Anderson]

Another commentor above: "Just read the WaPo article... if SSgt Frederick was keeping such detailed notes, WTH didn't he blow the whistle, instead of just writing home to his family?"

It was noted in a Counterpunch article that he his "journal" after he found himself under suspicion in January - including his "I asked X about this and was told to go ahead."

And his lawyer is a #$%^. Didn't know how to humiliate Arabs until instructed by Intel types? Frst, what was done would humiliate anyone I know here in the US. Second, without even trying I can come up with Arab-specific abuse: tapping with a bedroom slipper (hitting with a shoe is VERY BAD - somehow sex-related, Clayton Cramer explained it on his blog last year) or forcing them to use the left hand to eat.

Anyhoo, back to the topic, officers should have known about this, investigated, and court-martialled without the spur of someone whistle-blowing stateside. That's why a number are going to be out of a job, not just the General. And more to come.

One of the things that bugs ne is the PR aspect. We should have taken the hit at the end of January with a press release that "alleged abuses in military detention centers are being investigated. A number of soldiers, including officers not directly involved but with command responsibility, have been transferred or relieved of duty pending the results of investigation." with a friendly local (actually, several Iraqi bloggers did this without being asked) pointing that such abuse in most Arab countries would be ignored or praised. Like the murderers who made teen girls stay in a burning building lest some male see their hair.

[Louis Spielman]

When I was a junior petty officer in the USN in the mid-60s, I was always taught that you could always delegate authority, but that you could never ever delegate responsability. Whatever happened to that principle.

[Sapper Mike]

I've posted this on other sites, but after seeing what was said in the New Yorker article, all I can ask is "Where were the NCOs?" I is unlikely, but possible, that a weak officer wouldn't have a clue about this, but starting with this clown Fredericks, where were the NCOs that should have been jumping up and down screaming "Don't do this!"

It brings to mind an unfortunate incident I experienced in '91 when I was on my way into Saudi and ultimately Iraq. After spending about 20 hours flying from our assembly point at Ft. Benning to get to Saudi, we landed at that wonderful (not small) new King Fahd airport. We then wait around and finally climb on busses to go to Dharan. We get into the barracks area, where the inprocessing unit, a Reserve unit from New Jersey, will do the initial breakdown. It is well after midnight, but this Sergeant First Class comes outside in his robe and flip-flops and commences to tell us, for the next 15 minutes, that if we do anything at all against "his" rules, he'd burn us. After about the twentieth iteration of this phrase, my Sappers had had enough, and started mocking him. He topped it off by saying he'd been in the Army 17 years, where one of my E4s told him that they had both seen about the same amount of Active Duty time.

I don't say this to piss off the Reservists out there. It's just this clown was reacting like a No Time In Grade Buck SGT wearing his newly pinned on Stripes and not like a Senior NCO. When I worked as an active duty advisor to NG units, almost all of the NCOs I came across were as fine as any I had ever worked with. But when the Chain of Command was weak, the Sergeants holding down leadership positions were not Leaders, just guys who got paid more.

The first line of discipline within any unit is the NCO. If all a unit has is a bunch of highly paid enlisted men (E5 through E9) and not NCOs, that unit is going to have severe problems.

From what I've read, the 800th MP Brigade had plenty of people paid way too much money, and no NCOs of Officers worthy of the name.

Sapper Mike

[Harvey]

Coming via Blackfive - Just wanted to say - excellent post

[Pawatwoop]

Wow, thier comments read like something middle management would say in a civilian comapany... Or something Dilbert would make fun of.

[BacksightForethought]

Has anyone else observed that, in general, NCOs are pissed at the NCOs who should have known what was going on, and officers are pissed at the officers? Everyone, though, seems to agree that Gen. Karpinski is failing to measure up as a soldier and as a general officer.

The only way I can imagine what happened is that it must have not seemed so bad at the time (and I am skeptical about the more dramatic accusations). We constantly did mental exercises on how the laws of war would apply in particular situations (e.g., your small unit is behind enemy lines, needing to take an objective, and manages to capture several enemy prisoners - if you keep them, you're probably going to compromise your mission, if you shoot them, you might be a war criminal - similar to the situation Col West found himself confronted with). This action must have seen less extreme, at the time, then anything like that.

Which is not to say that the ones responsible should not be punished. One of the milblogs (can't remember which one) had the best analogy I've seen:

This isn't like running a stop sign, getting pulled over, and getting a ticket. This is like running a stop sign and causing a 15 car pileup that kills a half dozen people. It doesn't matter if the enemy daily does worse, it doesn't matter if the Arab governments so up in arms do far worse, it doesn't even matter that 60 years ago, people would have grimly accepted such treatment of Nazi prisoners. What the perps did here was wrong, the officers were derelict (at best), and the effect on the overall mission was strongly negative. The only way to save the situation is to throw the book at them - I'd be surprised if less than 20 careers ended here, and if there isn't jail time for those most involved.

I will also bet that there is a lot more of "Sir, I will need that order in writing."

-BF

[aaron]

I think some of these abusers worked in prisons back here in the US where these techniques of control are more common.

bellatrys- the "some guy named sanchez" happens to be the general in charge of troops in iraq.

someone put the 800th mp's in charge of running prisons even though they had no training in diong so (according to the report). the 800th's commander sought no training from those willing to give it. the report states that no one from fort leavenworth or fort leanard wood was asked to come give their reserve unit training.

high level nco's claimed to have given the training yet could not produce the class rosters that are passed around in every class to verify that it was given and who attended.

what does this have to do with the cia and the shah of iran?